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Friday, October 17, 2008

Something Christians Should Be Aware Of - A Great Possibility If Obama Is Elected

I wanted to share this article with you because I believe it's something to be extremely aware of when voting for a candidate.  And while I'm not attempting to dissuade anyone's vote I can't help but feel that I have an obligation to expose false notions made by some who profess to be Christian.  When it comes down to it all, I believe it is very simple.  In my opinion, everything that Barack stands for and most of the laws that he is trying to pass goes against the law of God.  People who say things such as "what does it matter who we choose?" and "we don't draw our beliefs from our countries president...." fail to realize that when they elect a president they are also electing all those under him in authority who will either set laws in place or rid of existing laws that we have already worked so hard to put in place.  For the person who claims  they draw their beliefs from the word of God, if Barack is appointed, may not be able to believe and have the choice they once had.   This is not a Christians bash Obama session!  This is about choosing wisely the person who is most in line with our views which we draw from God and His Word.  Lets stop putting our own opinions in and start reading what His word says.  We can know the mind of God now because He left us this precious, infallible, historically accurate and trustworthy love letter


B
arack Obama is an impressive speaker who presents himself as a “bridge builder” that will unite Americans of all political persuasions. Obama also speaks openly about his faith and his respect for pro-life and pro-family voters in a way not seen in many recent Democratic candidates for President. Because of these things, many Christians have been considering voting for Obama. 
What Christians and other people of faith need to understand is that in spite of Obama’s rhetoric about being a “uniter” who will work for common ground, Obama’s policies could not possibly be more opposed to the views of social conservatives. Indeed, it is not an exaggeration to state that an Obama presidency could undo every single gain that has been made in recent years by pro-life and pro-family Americans. Furthermore, an Obama presidency could usher in a new era of difficulty—or, dare we say, even a persecution—for Christians in the United States the likes of which we have never seen.
All Christian voters need to take their political responsibility seriously and give weighty consideration to these reasons not to vote for Obama. And when you’re done reading, please pass this along to others so that Americans will be informed about the very real potential threats to Christians should Obama become our next President.


1. If Obama becomes President, Roe v. Wade is unlikely to be reversed for years to come
A vote for Obama is not just for Barack Obama himself, but the people whom he would place in positions of authority, most importantly, his appointments to the Supreme Court. At the time of the election five of the Supreme Court justices will be at least 70 years of age, and Justice John Paul Stevens is a ripe old 88! Therefore, it is highly likely that the next President will appoint multiple justices to the Supreme Court.
The Court is currently sharply divided and most believe that Bush’s appointments of Justices Alito and Roberts provide four of the five votes necessary to overturn Roe v. Wade. One or two more conservative justices would certainly result in reversing Roe v. Wade, which for the first time since 1973 would allow states to protect the unborn by law. On the other hand, if Obama is elected then his judicial appointments will likely provide a cushion to the current pro-abortion majority, possibly ensuring that Roe v. Wade remains the law of the land for decades to come.
During this election South Dakotans will vote on a law to restrict abortion except for cases of rape, incest and maternal health. Pro-life leaders believe that this has a strong chance of passing and would be likely to come before the Supreme Court in 2011 or 2012, setting up the next major test case to Roe v. Wade. Thus, the next President is likely to determine whether Roe v. Wade stands or falls.
No other issue can compare with the gravity of the nearly 50 million precious unborn lives that have been lost—as well as the countless women and men who have been emotionally scarred—thanks to abortion since Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. Christians have a duty to seize the opportunity before us in 2008 and say no more to legalized abortion and the candidates who support it.

2. Obama’s first act as president would erase every existing common sense restriction on abortion. 
Obama openly declared that “the first thing I’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act.”[1] The pro-abortion rights National Organization for Women claims that this act “would sweep away hundreds of anti-abortion laws, policies" at all levels of government.[2] With one stroke of the pen, Obama and the Democratic Congress would wipe out all of the common sense restrictions that have been placed on abortion over past decades, including the following: [3]
· All 50 states’ requirements for state abortion reporting
· 44 states' laws concerning parental involvement
· 40 states' laws on restricting later-term abortions
· 46 states' conscience protection laws for individual health care providers
· 27 states' conscience protection laws for institutions
· 38 states' bans on partial-birth abortion
· 33 states' laws on requiring counseling before an abortion
· 28 states' laws requiring a waiting period before an abortion, and
· 16 states' laws concerning ultrasounds before an abortion

3. Obama steadfastly opposed a “Born Alive Infants Protection law” in Illinois. 
While Obama was a state senator in the Illinois legislature, he defeated a bill nearly identical to the Born Alive Infants Protection Act passed by a vote of 98-0 in the U.S. Senate in 2001. Documents prove that Obama led his fellow Democrats on the legislative committee to kill the bill over concerns it would endanger legal abortion.[4]
These laws were introduced in response to multiple accounts of botched abortions resulting in infants being born alive and left to die. For example, Jill Stanek worked as a nurse at Christ Hospital in Chicago and went public with the hospital’s practice of inducing premature labor for women seeking late-term abortions. Sometimes the babies were born breathing and alive, and were then left on the counter to perish. Stanek testified that one time she held a precious baby for 45 minutes until he died.
It is astonishing that Obama was so committed to protecting abortion that he could vote against this act in the face of evidence that it was going on in his own state. Obama now claims that he would have supported the federal law, but his actual voting record puts him in a more pro-abortion position than Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, or Barbara Boxer—and that’s hard to do! 

4. Obama and the Democrats want taxpayers to fund abortions.
The 2008 Democratic Platform states that the party “strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to choose a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay” (emphasis added). In other words, if a woman can’t afford an abortion, Democrats plan to force taxpayers to pick up the tab. Obama voted against legislation in the Illinois State Senate that prohibited taxpayer dollars from being used to pay for abortion and believes that Medicaid should cover abortions.[5] Obama would also continue giving hundreds of millions of federal funds each year to Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest provider of abortions, as evidenced by his votes against cutting off funding for the agency as a Senator.

5. Obama would reverse the "Mexico City Policy." 
This policy, which had been started by Ronald Reagan, discontinued by Bill Clinton, and restored by George W. Bush, prevents international funding from going to organizations that promote or perform abortions. Under the Bush administration the United States government has been a thorn in the side of the powerful pro-abortion forces at the United Nations. If Obama is elected, the U.S. will switch sides and begin throwing its huge influence behind those trying to define legal abortion as an “international human right” and impose it on the rest of the world.

6. Obama wants to begin new federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.
Even though recent scientific advances have rendered this type of research unnecessary, Obama still wants to use taxpayer dollars to do research on stem cells that require the destruction of human embryos. John McCain previously supported federal funding embryonic stem cell research, but his website gives reason to believe that he no longer holds that position.[6] It is also worth recalling that while adult stem cells have resulted in numerous cures, embryonic stem cells have yet to produce a single cure.

7. Obama’s judicial appointees could require same-sex “marriage.”
Decisions by the state Supreme Courts in Massachusetts and California are requiring the states to recognize same-sex “marriages” for both residents and non-residents who come to the state seeking a marriage license. Not only does this give legal blessing to what Christianity has always deemed as disordered and immoral, but it has important ramifications for the rest of society too. Same-sex "marriage" by law affects business laws, threatens the tax-exempt status of churches, and shapes what is taught in schools.[7] For instance, in California, a state “tolerance” initiative now requires schools to promote a positive view of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transsexuality in the classroom.[8] Educational organizations are legally barred from receiving any state funding unless they conform to the state’s policy against the traditional family, and public schools could even be required to allow boys to use girls restrooms and locker rooms, and vice versa, if they choose. Given Obama’s stated liberal views and radical pro-gay agenda[9], it is entirely reasonable to conclude that Obama will appoint judges on the Supreme Court with similar judicial philosophies to those on the State Supreme Court in California, thus resulting in similar rulings at the federal level for the entire United States. 

8. Obama wants to overturn the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA). 
DOMA” was passed by President Clinton and said that states could not be forced to recognize same-sex “marriages” contracted in other states as they ordinarily would be required to do under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution. If this is overturned, then states no longer have the strength of federal law behind them if they choose to maintain the traditional definition of marriage, and could end up being required by courts to accept same-sex “marriages” contracted in other states. Obama’s website states that he “believes we need to fully repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions.”[10]

9. Obama’s support for "gay rights" threatens churches and Christian organizations.
The battle over “gay rights” holds numerous threats for Christian churches and organizations. For example, in Massachusetts, the state’s largest provider of adoption services, Catholic Charities, lost its state licensing because it would not provide adoption services to homosexual couples. The same thing also recently happened to Catholic Charities in the United Kingdom. It should be noted that Obama’s website states that his support for same-sex unions specifically mentions giving gay couples "equal legal rights ... including adoption rights.”
In countries like Canada and Sweden, Christian pastors have been taken to court for “hate speech” crimes for preaching from the Scripture about the immorality of homosexual acts. Even in the United States, the Boy Scouts had to go to the Supreme Court to defend their organization’s ability to prevent homosexuals from being troop leaders. The Scouts had lost their case at the state level and only won at Supreme Court by a narrow 5-4 vote. Note that the Court was within a single vote of requiring a private organization to accept leaders whose views were clearly at odds with the organization’s core Christian values. With one or two more liberal justices on the Court, the Boy Scouts and other traditional organizations could find themselves on the losing side of such cases.

10. Obama could force Christian pharmacists out of business.
Obama’s website speaks of ending “insurance discrimination against contraception.”[11] Should Obama get elected, there will be little concern given to Christians who have qualms with contraceptives, the “morning-after pill” (Plan B), and the like. Some states have already passed laws requiring pharmacists to provide so-called “emergency contraception.” In Obama’s native Illinois, the Governor issued an executive order that resulted in Christian pharmacists losing their jobs for declining to dispense the morning-after pill on conscientious grounds. Christians can expect such battles to grow nationally if Obama follows through and signs legislation requiring insurance and pharmaceutical companies to cover and provide drugs that act as abortifacients.

Some might dismiss these ten reasons as “fear-mongering” from the religious right. But should Obama get elected—and especially if he is joined by a Democratic-controlled Congress—these potential impacts are entirely reasonable to predict. In fact, most of them are simply goals that Barack Obama and the Democrats have publicly stated for all to hear. The examples cited above show that these dangers are real and are already taking place in our own country. Christians and others concerned with traditional values need to be made aware of the very real threats to their religious liberties they could face should Obama get elected.
Clearly, John McCain and Sarah Palin are worlds apart from Barack Obama and Joe Biden. McCain chose for his running mate Sarah Palin, who not only speaks about being pro-life, but has lived it out by choosing to give birth to her son with Down’s Syndrome, whom she describes as “perfect.” A McCain-Palin administration would not only be strongly pro-life and pro-family, it would provide a living testimony and constant reminder of the beauty of embracing life.
Consider John McCain’s words below and contrast them with Obama’s positions above, and the choice for people of faith in 2008 is clear:

I will look for accomplished men and women, with a proven record of excellence in the law, and a proven commitment, to strictly interpreting the Constitution of the United States. I will look for people in the cast of John Roberts, Sam Alito, my friend the late William Rehnquist, jurists of the highest caliber who know their own minds, and know the law, and know the difference. I have been pro-life, my entire public career. I am pro-life, because I know what it is like, to live without human rights, where human life is accorded no inherent value. And I know that I have a personal obligation to advocate human rights wherever they are denied, in Bosnia or Burma, in Cuba or the Middle East, and in our own country, when we fail to respect the inherent dignity of all human life, born or unborn. That is a personal testament, which you need not take on faith. You need only to examine my public record, to know that I won't change my position.
John McCain's Remarks in Speech to National Pro-Life Convention, July 22, 2008. 

6 comments:

Anonymous said...

Joe, since your new post here is clearly a response to my previously posted comment on another blog entry, let me just point the readers over to that earlier blog entry so they can see what you are responding to:

http://jsirianni7.blogspot.com/2008/10/who-is-obama-really.html

Once you have read this previous post, move on to my comments below.

Anonymous said...

Now in response to your current Blog post above, let me say this. I also feel compelled to (as you said) "expose false notions made by some who profess to be Christian." Joe, you are clearly misguided in your notion that we should elect presidents that will enact Christian laws. There is no basis for this in the bible; non what-so-ever. Yet many Christians try to misrepresent the word of God to manipulate the government’s laws.

Now before you go off on a tangent… I am not arguing the validity of your standpoint on abortion, guy relationships, or any of that. I am 100% in agreeance with you on these subjects as it relates to what “Professed Christians” should and shouldn’t do. As such, there is no need for you to argue those points in your reply. The only thing that your claiming that I don’t think is biblically sound is your expectation that elected officials should enact laws (or keep existing ones in place) that force “non-Christians” to abide by “Christian” beliefs. IN EVERY RESPECT, the word of God (in the Bible) clearly iterates time and time again that every human has a CHOICE. They can either CHOSE to follow God and obey his word… or they can CHOSE not to follow God and be wicked to whatever extent they want to be wicked. I am going to be very clear on this: NO WHERE in the word of God does it say that “Christians” should limit “non-Christians” in their ability to choose wicked behavior. I challenge you to find me one place where the Bible says the contrary. … Keep in mind that the Old Testament does not count on this subject since Gods grace had not been extended to non-jews. Also keep in mind that that the laws of the Jews (both in the Old and the New Testament) don’t count as an example of government enforcement either because the Jews were a “Religious State” that was mandated by God and directly governed by God’s law. Show me in the Bible where God mandated that the Laws on “non-Religious States” should force non-Christians to follow Christian beliefs BY FORCE and not by choice.

The only government laws that Christians need to worry about are laws that take away the Christians choice. To pursue anything put laws that establish this it to pursue laws that are against Gods plan for human choice; plain and simple!
I believe the Bible calls Christians not to interfere in non-Christian’s choices. This is a choice given by God and should not be messed with. Of course, we should share the word of God with non-Christians, but at the end of the day, allow them to make their own choices. If they want to be guy and marry each other, so be it. It is not our place to judge them. Their judgment will come, but it should not be at the hands of man.

For the sake of argument, what good does it really do anyway to FORCE non-Christians to obey some Christian beliefs? You are not saving a non-Christian by forcing Christian beliefs on them. Furthermore, all sins are equal in the eyes of God. Whether you kill a fetus or tell a teeny-tiny white lie, you’re seen as the same in the eyes of God. It is men that put degrees of severity on sins and not God.

By the way... as a side note; do you really think McCain is for Christians? The Republicans use the Christian majority as a tool; nothing more! For the Republicans the Christian issues are just a means to an end. It gets them elected so they can pursue their true fundamental cause: making the rich, richer. Do you like being used as a tool?

Anonymous said...

Now in response to your current Blog post above, let me say this. I also feel compelled to (as you said) "expose false notions made by some who profess to be Christian." Joe, you are clearly misguided in your notion that we should elect presidents that will enact Christian laws. There is no basis for this in the bible; non what-so-ever. Yet many Christians try to misrepresent the word of God to manipulate the government’s laws.

Now before you go off on a tangent… I am not arguing the validity of your standpoint on abortion, guy relationships, or any of that. I am 100% in agreeance with you on these subjects as it relates to what “Professed Christians” should and shouldn’t do. As such, there is no need for you to argue those points in your reply. The only thing that your claiming that I don’t think is biblically sound is your expectation that elected officials should enact laws (or keep existing ones in place) that force “non-Christians” to abide by “Christian” beliefs. IN EVERY RESPECT, the word of God (in the Bible) clearly iterates time and time again that every human has a CHOICE. They can either CHOSE to follow God and obey his word… or they can CHOSE not to follow God and be wicked to whatever extent they want to be wicked. I am going to be very clear on this: NO WHERE in the word of God does it say that “Christians” should limit “non-Christians” in their ability to choose wicked behavior. I challenge you to find me one place where the Bible says the contrary. … Keep in mind that the Old Testament does not count on this subject since Gods grace had not been extended to non-jews. Also keep in mind that that the laws of the Jews (both in the Old and the New Testament) don’t count as an example of government enforcement either because the Jews were a “Religious State” that was mandated by God and directly governed by God’s law. Show me in the Bible where God mandated that the Laws on “non-Religious States” should force non-Christians to follow Christian beliefs BY FORCE and not by choice.

The only government laws that Christians need to worry about are laws that take away the Christians choice. To pursue anything put laws that establish this it to pursue laws that are against Gods plan for human choice; plain and simple!

I believe the Bible calls Christians not to interfere in non-Christian’s choices. This is a choice given by God and should not be messed with. Of course, we should share the word of God with non-Christians, but at the end of the day, allow them to make their own choices. For example, if they want to be a gay couple and marry each other, so be it. It is not our place to enforce government laws judge them or discriminate against them. Their judgment will come, but it should not be at the hands of man.

For the sake of argument, what good does it really do anyway to FORCE non-Christians to obey some Christian beliefs? You are not saving a non-Christian by forcing Christian beliefs on them. Furthermore, all sins are equal in the eyes of God. Whether you kill a fetus or tell a teeny-tiny white lie, you’re seen as the same in the eyes of God. It is men that put degrees of severity on sins and not God.

By the way… as a side note; do you really think McCain is for Christians? The Republicans use the Christian majority as a tool; nothing more! For the Republicans the Christian issues are just a means to an end. It gets them elected so they can pursue their true fundamental cause: making the rich, richer. Do you like being used as a tool?

Joe Sirianni said...

Pedro,

While I’m tempted to "go off on a tangent" I will keep this short and sweet. Short by my standards anyway.

Nowhere did I suggest that we "force" anyone to live by Christian Rules. You are trying to create an argument that does not exist. Many of your views here are unscriptural and not in line with what our Savior taught and teaches.

I also hope that you don't think my postings are singularly directed towards you, though I have used and quoted some of your comments. If you think you are the only person I debate and have made such comments to me on these matters you're wrong.

It's also worthy to note that as you say;

Now before you go off on a tangent… I am not arguing the validity of your standpoint on abortion, guy relationships, or any of that. I am 100% in agreeance with you on these subjects as it relates to what “Professed Christians” should and shouldn’t do (emphasis mine)

I would argue that you don't agree with me on these, and therefore you don't agree with God on them because this is the only reason I agree with them, that is they are drawn from scripture.

Otherwise I would ask (though I’m not judging you for your presidential nominee choice) why would you then want to appoint a man to lead our country and choose leaders under Him who will enact all the above of which you supposedly agree with me upon?

Since you believe in the word of God:

God says all those who practice homosexuality “will have their part in the lake of fire”. But you want Obama in office who will push for gay marriage and possibly "require" it to be recognized.

"Same-sex "marriage" by law affects business laws, threatens the tax-exempt status of churches, and shapes what is taught in schools"

God says "you shall not commit murder" yet we abort 4,000 unborn babies a day. And you want to appoint a man who will make no attempt to reverse Roe vs. Wade - In fact he will push to see that abortion remains legal, and that if any children do survive an abortion attempt they should not be attended to (“Born Alive Infants Protection law”) but left to die. You are a Christian and believe in the word of God which says that "God created" but you want to elect a man who doesn't believe Creation should be taught and believes we evolved (Macro) though there is no evidence for this. So he will not be pushing anytime soon to have creation taught along side of the evolutionary theory. Psalm 139 says "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb" but you want to elect a man who wants to continue embryonic stem cell research at the cost of millions of unborn lives which God was forming in the womb according to his very own word. The Father and Jesus said "for this reason a man shall leave his mother and father and be united (one) with his wife” did he say a man shall be united with his "husband"? No. God's design was for a man to be with a woman, his helper as he stated in Genesis. In fact, the word says "for a man shall not lie with a man, for this is an abomination unto the Lord" and he even destroyed an entire city for this wickedness. I will not even bother to share the effects of the damage homosexual behavior does to mans body. Certain parts of the mans body was not designed to be penetrated as the parts of the woman were. Just ask the man who I used to work with whos colon literally fell out of his body. Sorry for the brute facts. But you want to elect a man who will possibly overturn the Defense of Marriage act which states we do not have to "recognize" same sex marriage. So I fail to see where you agree with God on these issues? You keep playing these off as a few things that Obama is in disagreement with when in fact they are some of the most important things because God found them important enough that he preserved them in his Word which was given to us as a guide. “How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word”. (Psalm 119:9)

For the rest of your comment, you are wrong and either misinterpreted my words or completely distorted them. I’m guessing the former. And being that I incorporated articles not written by me but by other Christian organizations, your argument is with them not me. I simply agree with them because they stand for what God teaches and commands.

Pedro;
The only government laws that Christians need to worry about are laws that take away the Christians choice.

This is extremely ironic being that you are about to choose a candidate that may very possibly do this.

Pedro;
I believe the Bible calls Christians not to interfere in non-Christian’s choices.

You are clearly not reading the same bible that I am reading and your comment appears to be an oxy moron. That is a false statement and does not originate from the reading of the scriptures. And there are numerous examples where God calls us to take part in the changing of a secular society. For that matter then why does God cause revivals in the most ungodly places? In fact, the very gospel itself calls that we do this. Jesus said in Matt 28 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” but your saying not to even bother with the affairs of the non-Christians? God says go to them and you say don't interfere with them and their choices, especially when those choices effect our beliefs? I’m confused.

Pedro;
For the sake of argument, what good does it really do anyway to FORCE non-Christians to obey some Christian beliefs?

Not sure where you got this, because you didn't get this from reading my blog. No where did I suggest we "FORCE" anyone to do this. Even Jesus stated not to cast our pearls to pigs" I preach the gospel to people almost on a daily basis because the very word gospel means "good news" and if anyone tells me they don't want to hear it, I shake the dust off of my sandals and move on. I do not force anyone to believe what I believe. I share with them the same way I would share the truth of a plane crashing and that there are parachutes in the back and if anyone takes the parachute they will be saved. But you are saying not to interfere with their lives and decisions. Don't you see that you don't see the gospel in this way and that's the problem? You have to stop seeing it as bothering people and do it because God commanded it. If they don't listen then by all means move on. But if a building was burning and a plane was crashing I’m going to tell people in the building or on board the plane about it because I love them and don't want them to die in their sins. If they don't listen I will pray for them but I can’t save them. You need to read the book of Isaiah, God told him he needed to go tell a certain people his word and if he didn't their blood would be on his hands but if he went and they didn't listen to him then his hands would be clean of their blood. I want no one's blood on my hands on that day Pedro. There is only one thing that bothers me at night when I’m asleep and that is that many people will not go to heaven but hell. The bible teaches that only a "few will enter" It also teaches that “Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter heaven but only him who does the will of my father”

And Peter said "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" So if we don’t go them how will they know this? Most people have the wrong Idea about God and think differently once the gospel is made clear to them. But…….. “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”


This is what it is all about. Do you love the Lord? And I don't mean do you love the lord the way you love your wife and kids. I mean do you love the Lord! Can you say “my soul pants for you as a deer pants for water? If I gathered three of your best friends and ask them what is most important in your life, will they say Jesus Christ? If I ask them do you read your bible and receive your "daily bread" would they say yes. Do you, as the scripture teaches, love what God loves and hate what God hates? God hates everything that Obama is trying to put in place. I ask these questions not to point to anything other than a matter of your heart.

Anonymous said...

I find it funny that you said the following when I clearly stated otherwise in no uncertain terms:
“I would argue that you don't agree with me on these [the fact that God is against abortion, gay marriage, etc.], and therefore you don't agree with God on them.”

Let me re-iterate: I am not arguing the validity of your standpoint on abortion, guy relationships, or any of that. I am 100% in agreeance with you on these subjects as it relates to what “Professed Christians” should and shouldn’t do. As such, there is no need for you to argue those points in your reply. The only thing that your claiming that I don’t think is biblically sound is your expectation that elected officials should enact laws (or keep existing ones in place) that force “non-Christians” to abide by “Christian” beliefs. Just because I disagree with you on how non-Christians should be governed, does not mean I disagree with you on what Christians should do if they CHOSE to follow Jesus. These are mutually exclusive arguments and there is no contradictory of terms here. If a “non-Christian” chooses to follow Christ, then they are obligated to abide by his word. If they don’t want to follow Christ, then should not be FORCE to abide by some of Gods teachings (like not being Gay or abortion)… it is a choice they should be able to make and be judged by on the day of judgment.

I said: “The only governments laws that Christians need to worry about are laws that take away the Christians choice.”

You said: “This is extremely ironic being that you are about to choose a candidate that may very possibly do this.”

In response to this: I am choosing a candidate for his ability to govern both Christians and non-Christians. Last time I checked, we don’t live in a Christian State so laws should protect both Christians and non-Christians choices. In that respect, I think Obama is the better choice. He is not going take away your right to make Christian choices. He is also not going to take away the rights for non-Christian to make their non-Christian choices. Yes, it is a tough pill to swallow… but God is for the ability of non-Christians to choose so we should not stand in his. You are obviously against Gods word in this area. You not only want to be able to share the word of God with them, but you also want to be able to FORCE them to comply with certain parts of it through government laws even if they would rather chose not to. Your standpoint here is non-biblical and I will pray that God works in your heart and mind to help you understand his desire for non-Christian right of choice.

You said “I do not force anyone to believe what I believe. I share with them the same way I would share the truth of a plane crashing and that there are parachutes in the back and if anyone takes the parachute they will be saved.”

You are forcing them Joe. Can’t you see that? By electing presidents in the hope they will enact laws that will take away non-Christians choice, you are FORCING non-Christians to comply with these points in Gods word. … so you are not just sharing the good word with them… you are also forcing them in these respects through the political choices you make.

You said “[I] have to stop seeing it as bothering people and do it because God commanded it.”

I don’t see it as bothering anyone. As I said in my last post and I quote “Of course, we should share the word of God with non-Christians, but at the end of the day, allow them to make their own choices. “ So I am 100% in agreeance with you that we as Christians are obligated to share our beliefs and the good news about Jesus Christ with others. There is no point to argue here.

You brought up the point that in the Old Testament God ordered certain cities to comply with his will or he would destroy them. The important point here is that it was God imposing the law. It was not God stating that the government should impose the law. God gave every man and women in those cities the right to individual choose. Any individual that chose his word would be spared [and could leave the city and be free of Gods wrath]. This is a very important point. It shows God wants people to have the choice and that if anyone is going to judge, it will be him and not the government.

You asked “Do you, as the scripture teaches, love what God loves and hate what God hates? God hates everything that Obama is trying to put in place.”

Yes I do. I don’t agree with the wickedness that non-Christians chose for their lives. I hate it. However, it is very clear from scripture what God calls us to do about this. God calls us to share his word with non-Christians, which we do. It then calls us to allow non-Christians to make their own choice. If they want to sin, then let them sin. We should not pass laws to prohibit non-Christians from these choices. It is Gods plan to let them choose. It is therefore not our position to Judge them with laws at the hands of Man.

You have said many things in your reply Joe, but yet you failed to tackle my challenge head on. So again, “I challenge you to find me one place where the Bible says the contrary. … again, keep in mind that the Old Testament does not count on this subject since Gods grace through his covenant with humankind had not been extended to non-jews. Also keep in mind that that the laws of the Jews (both in the Old and the New Testament) don’t count as an example of government enforcement either because the Jews were a “Religious State” that was mandated by God and directly governed by God’s law. Show me in the Bible where God mandated that the Laws on “non-Religious States” should force non-Christians to follow Christian beliefs BY FORCE and not by choice.”

So, I ask, where is your Biblical proof that God calls us to FORCE the compliance of Non-Christians to Gods word through human laws? Where or where is it Joe? Instead of circle the issue with points about everything else, why don’t you tackle this head on?

Joe Sirianni said...

Pedro you are impossible! How many times will you twist my words around?

Pedro;
Let me re-iterate: I am not arguing the validity of your standpoint on abortion, guy relationships, or any of that. I am 100% in agreeance with you on these subjects as it relates to what "Professed Christians" should and shouldn't do

How hard is this to understand? You agree with me on these but want to put a man in the president's seat who does not believe these things? I see the problem here. You are not looking at this in a Christian perspective, WHICH IS HOW YOU SHOULD BE VIEWING IT. Your views are strictly secular and that of a secular standpoint.

Pedro;
The only thing that your claiming that I don't think is biblically sound is your expectation that elected officials should enact laws (or keep existing ones in place) that force "non-Christians" to abide by "Christian" beliefs.

I am not nor have I claimed this at all. You are twisting my words or just plain don't understand them. I do not expect officials to make laws to "force" non believers to live by God's law. JESUS DID NOT EVEN DO THIS and he was the maker of all things. I follow his example in that when he told the rich young ruler how to be saved and he walked away sad because he had great wealth, Jesus did not run after him. In addition, one could easily argue by the scriptures that it is biblically sound for God to want and desire the man in authority to be one who follows after Him. This is fluttered throughout the entire bible when a king was chosen for Israel. This is why whenever a king was introduced in the scripture it was usually followed by the fact of whether "he did what was right in the sight of the Lord" or "he did that which was wicked and evil in the sight of the Lord" Why would God bother to note this in scripture about a particular ruler unless he wanted the reader to understand that this person followed him and another person did not recognize his laws and statutes.

Tell me, why would God make the following statement in scripture if we are not as Christians supposed to influence our country full of non-believers?

"1 Kings 11:33
"I will do this (judgment) because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon's father, did."


Pedro;
In response to this: I am choosing a candidate for his ability to govern both Christians and non-Christians. Last time I checked, we don't live in a Christian State so laws should protect both Christians and non-Christians choices. In that respect, I think Obama is the better choice. He is not going take away your right to make Christian choices. He is also not going to take away the rights for non-Christian to make their non-Christian choices. Yes, it is a tough pill to swallow… but God is for the ability of non-Christians to choose so we should not stand in his. You are obviously against Gods word in this area. You not only want to be able to share the word of God with them, but you also want to be able to FORCE them to comply with certain parts of it through government laws even if they would rather chose not to. Your standpoint here is non-biblical and I will pray that God works in your heart and mind to help you understand his desire for non-Christian right of choice.

Do you understand how scrambled your statement is? We don't live in a Christian state? You are correct, we don't, even though this entire nation was founded by Christians and based upon biblical principles! He is not going to take away your right to make Christian choices? You need to stop throwing around the "Christians and non-Christians" view point. When I’m talking, I am talking about all people in general but am looking at it through the perspective of the Christian faith. As a Christian you have the "OBLIGATION" under God to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Did you know that? As a Christian, God calls you to protect the innocent in so far as it's in your ability to do so. So Obama is going to keep and make new laws that will allow abortion to come to a fruition that you have never seen before. So you stand by and vote for a man that will make this happen, you will put someone in place who will make it possible to kill babies and more babies legally! Do you know what the number one reason for an abortion by a woman is? It is "convenience" Less than 1% of abortions that happen, happen because of incest or rape. The number one reason is so that the child will not be an inconvenience and have their (adults)lives interrupted. And Obama himself said if a woman was raped and became pregnant that she shouldn't have to "suffer" by having to raise a child. In my bible, which is the same one you read, says that children are a gift from God and the man who has many of them is blessed.

Pedro;
but God is for the ability of non-Christians to choose so we should not stand in his way.

Are you serious? Let’s use this on your family. Your daughter wants to step in front of some train tracks because she believes that the second she is hit, she will pass on and go be with God in paradise. You are for her being able to make her own choice right? You better not stop her now; based on your reasoning you better let her make her own choice to do this; you need to be consistent with your belief. Ridiculous right? In the same way God does not stand by while men and woman are in danger of the very pits of Hell and say "I reserve the right to let you "choose" hell" The bible says "behold I stand and knock at the door...." God is constantly knocking on their doors and wanting them to let him in and make his home with them but they constantly reject him. And so then and only then does God say ok, if this is the path you are choosing you have that choice. Do you see how it works? This is what scripture teaches. Throughout the entire bible God chases man out of love and man runs from god and even hates him. Otherwise they would have recognized the Christ the first time he came and not crucified Him


Pedro;
You are forcing them Joe. Can't you see that? By electing presidents in the hope they will enact laws that will take away non-Christians choice, you are FORCING non-Christians to comply with these points in Gods word. … so you are not just sharing the good word with them… you are also forcing them in these respects through the political choices you make.

Wrong Wrong Wrong......... I do not want to elect a president in the hopes that He will enact laws that will take away non-Christians choices. What do you think; I want a president that will make non-believers go to church? or make them pray in school? Make every kids carry a bible? Your statement doesn't make sense because the non Christian does not have any moral laws he abides by. He lives by his own law "1 Corinthians 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" So why would I want to FORCE Christian laws (viewpoints) on them. I would like them to follow them because they love God and what God has done in their lives and that He has transformed their heart like he did mine. That is the only way. I would never Force anything. If anything I want McCain to win so that he will influence the people not "Force" them. The laws that will be set in place by him will not force anyone to do anything but will stop, cease and prevent innocent lives from being killed. Do you see the difference? Obama wants to continue for innocent lives to be taken so no one is inconvenienced with an unwanted birth. I want to elect a president that will not take away the laws that Christians have worked so hard to see made for the better of humanity and keeping their ultimate salvation in mind. That is the difference between the Christian and non-Christian. Do you think your atheist friend cares about your salvation? Nope, but rest assured that the Christian cares about the atheist's salvation. Now I’m not saying that John McCain is a Christian nor do I agree with everything he agrees with, but he is more in line with biblical principles which is something you cannot say about Obama. Again this all comes down to your view point and I don't believe your looking at this particular issue through the Christian view point.

Pedro;
Of course, we should share the word of God with non-Christians, but at the end of the day, allow them to make their own choices. “So I am 100% in agreeance with you that we as Christians are obligated to share our beliefs and the good news about Jesus Christ with others. There is no point to argue here.

This has nothing to do with their choices. This is about YOUR choice to put someone in office that will pass laws that the God of your faith says we should not do. So you say of course we should share the word of God with non-Christians. I agree. So let’s see how that would go according to your reasoning. So you start sharing the word of God and how God values the sanctity of life (or he wouldn't have sent his one and only Son to die for us) and you tell them that God loves them and that he created this place for them etc..... Then they ask you who you are voting for? And you say Obama. And then they say to you, "but didn't you just say that life is sacred and God holds it in great value? Then why are you voting for someone who will pass laws making it possible for you to kill your unborn child? And why did you say God "created" when Obama will ensure that creation will not be taught in schools etc....

Point is If you were sharing your faith with me and told me where God stood I would wonder as well why you wanted to place someone in office who will attempt to make the opposite of what your God calls and stands for? They are in direct contradiction. Would you hire the president of Cuban Cigar's Int. to come run your Quit smoking campaign?


Pedro;
You brought up the point that in the Old Testament God ordered certain cities to comply with his will or he would destroy them. The important point here is that it was God imposing the law. It was not God stating that the government should impose the law. God gave every man and women in those cities the right to individual choose. Any individual that chose his word would be spared [and could leave the city and be free of Gods wrath]. This is a very important point. It shows God wants people to have the choice and that if anyone is going to judge, it will be him and not the government.

Once again, you have distorted my words. And you even mixed up bible passages. The whole point of that illustration was to show you how God holds "US" accountable to preach his gospel when we provides the opportunity. Jesus said "GO and make disciples of all nations........" not go if you feel like it. It had nothing to do with god imposing laws. But even if he did impose the law it would have been for a good reason. When God said not to practice homosexuality it was for a good reason and Sodom ignored it and so wreaked judgment on themselves. Because god is a righteous judge "He Must" punish them. Because that is what a judge does and the scripture says that he is a just judge, does it not? Pedro, you are in error because you don't know the scriptures or the power of God.


Pedro;
Yes I do. I don't agree with the wickedness that non-Christians chose for their lives. I hate it. However, it is very clear from scripture what God calls us to do about this. God calls us to share his word with non-Christians, which we do. It then calls us to allow non-Christians to make their own choice. If they want to sin, then let them sin. We should not pass laws to prohibit non-Christians from these choices. It is Gods plan to let them choose. It is therefore not our position to Judge them with laws at the hands of Man.

If you hate it then why are you choosing a man who promotes it??? You don't agree with wickedness, so then you don't agree with abortion as you have said but will put a man in office who does believe it? And not only does he believe it but he will ensure that it continues and is even legal and more rights are given to those who perform abortions? This is wickedness! So why don't you hate it then when Obama believes in it? Your God, your bible, your faith are in contradiction with what this man believes. Chose whom you want, but don't make it sound as though this man is not in conflict with our Savior. And again this is not about their choice. It is about you a Christian; your choice to put someone in control that will abolish all that you say you believe in. Why can't you see the contradiction? As I said, you are not looking at it in a Christian perspective but in a manner of "one should be able to choose" perspective. Yes we know they have the choice, but it's about your choice Pedro not theirs, we already know they don't believe in God or care about his ways. But you who profess, it does matter because its in direct contradiction.



Pedro;
You have said many things in your reply Joe, but yet you failed to tackle my challenge head on. So again, "I challenge you to find me one place where the Bible says the contrary. … again, keep in mind that the Old Testament does not count on this subject since Gods grace through his covenant with humankind had not been extended to non-jews. Also keep in mind that that the laws of the Jews (both in the Old and the New Testament) don't count as an example of government enforcement either because the Jews were a "Religious State" that was mandated by God and directly governed by God's law. Show me in the Bible where God mandated that the Laws on "non-Religious States" should force non-Christians to follow Christian beliefs BY FORCE and not by choice."

So, I ask, where is your Biblical proof that God calls us to FORCE the compliance of Non-Christians to Gods word through human laws? Where or where is it Joe? Instead of circle the issue with points about everything else, why don't you tackle this head on?

I don't understand why you insist on "challenging" me to find something for which I am not attempting to make a point on. But here is what I will do. I will show you (because your in error when you ask to find something in the bible addressing Christian and non Christian, though there are numerous as I will show you) where God addresses "MAN". This is where you are in error. Because the entire bible is addressed to man as in "man kind" meaning both woman, men and children. So this would address your Christians and non-Christians.

I will show easily in Gods word where he tells the people to follow his laws and statutes (out of love) because he has that right. Do you not have the right to form the lump of clay into anything you want? So does God have the right to tell his creation what to do and even pass judgment on it (Noah's flood) See where you’re wrong? Those were non-Christians outside the arc Pedro. And God through Noah spent about 40 years (this is the reason the new testament calls him "that great preacher") yet they ignored him and so were left outside the arc on judgment day. Did Noah just say on one day, ok, that's it folks, it's your choice, I’m done preaching. No! He pleaded with them day after day until the doors of the arc were closed. And so I’m doing the same thing. I’m pleading with people not forcing them, because I see the train coming, the knowledge has been given to Christians and so we have to pass it on to those playing on the tracks until we cannot any longer and it's too late. But at no point before that do we say, "I’m done, I told you now it's your choice" less they specifically say I don't want it (don't cast your pearls........")

And I love the restrictions you placed in your attempt to back me into a corner (Keep in mind that the Old Testament does not count on this subject since Gods grace had not been extended to non-jews. Also keep in mind that that the laws of the Jews (both in the Old and the New Testament) don't count as an example of government enforcement either because the Jews were a "Religious State" that was mandated by God and directly governed by God's law. Show me in the Bible where God mandated that the Laws on "non-Religious States" should force non-Christians to follow Christian beliefs BY FORCE and not by choice)

once again you are in error. The scripture specifically says that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. And so God does not change (please don't take this one out of context by showing me where God changed "his mind") There is a major difference from God changing his mind and God changing his character and who He is.

And God stated that ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED AND IS USEFUL FOR TEACHING, REBUKING, CORRECTING AND TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS (2nd Tim 3:16) So you are wrong to try to exclude the old testament. It's like me telling you to find the words "trinity" "rapture" and "dinosaur" in the bible. You will not be able to do it and so I cannot negate anything you say on that basis. But good try though. In addition, for the simple fact, not all the Israelites believed in God so they would represent non-Christians.


Examples from scripture;

1 - Lets start right where the 10 commandments come in, in Ex Chapter 20. This will be the ultimate example and most important because when you die and stand before god Pedro both you and I will be judged by these laws (10 commandments)

Now when Moses came off the mountain with the 10 commandments they were given to all the people the follow and you know they were not all Christians. I would say about a small handful were even Christians (Moses' household) we know this because the people built a calf and worshipped it. So here is your first example - God gave Moses the Law for ALL the people to follow. Even the non believers were to follow them. Why? Because God had the right. He created them, he saved them from slavery and Pharaoh and so when he wants to establish a nation he gives them rules to protect them. Ex 32

2 - In Deuteronomy 7:4-6 God said - "for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession"
You mean to tell me God told other people they couldn't worship on their own altars? Use their own sacred stones? Use their Asherah idol polls? They had to burn their idols with fire? Why would God "force" them to stop being wicked? The answer lies in the last sentence of that scripture and it most certainly applies to us his people today. There are dozens more examples of where Kings obeyed God and "imposed" his law on the people forcing them on more than one occasion to stop their wickedness whether they knew him or not. This was the function of the prophet, to relay this message to the people.

3 - Jeremiah 11:4 the terms I commanded your forefathers when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting furnace.' I said, 'Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God. (there were non-Christians in that place Pedro)

4 - Acts 10:42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. (there were non-Christians in that place Pedro. Why is he commanding them? Isn't that forcing?

5 - Nehemiah 9:13 ”You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. (there were non-Christians there Pedro)

6 - Psalm 78:5 - He decreed statutes for Jacob and established the law in Israel, which he commanded our forefathers to teach their children (whoa whoa whoa - he's telling people what to teach their children? What if the people want to teach their children to worship other Gods?) You better tell god that they have a choice. God doesn't seem to be in line with what you’re saying.

7 - Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Did he say "anyone" or Christians?)

8 - Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." (This is Jesus right? who calls ALL men to follow him - this includes Obama right? this includes George Bush right? So if George Bush were to follow God's commandments would he govern the people both Christian and non a like differently? I would argue yes, he would do it Gods way whether there were christians or non-Christians. And if he passed a law stating that abortion was illegal, then this would be a good thing and God's will. This I would applaud. Does this mean now that the "non-christians" lose a choice? Yes they can no longer take an inoccent life but you are arguning against this!)

9 - Matt 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (obey everything I have commanded you? You mean they can't be wicked? Would this be an example of Jesus telling them they can't be wicked or practice a level of wickedness? - are you going to be the one who tells God you don't have the right to tell the people including non-Christians what they can and can't do)

10 - Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. (Pedro, what does repent mean? To turn from your sin right? And does he say all people or some people? Do you mean to tell me that God is not giving them a choice to be wicked?)

11 - Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him (He calls people to obey him? Would this not be limiting non-Christians?)


12 - Job 36:10 - He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil. (but Pedro said; NO WHERE in the word of God does it say that “Christians” should limit “non-Christians” in their ability to choose wicked behavior. The bible said to be like God)


13 - Matt 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." (repent? as in limit your ability to choose wicked behavior...............to not be wicked at all maybe?)

Mark 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Mark 6:12 They went out and preached that people should repent. (limit their wicked behaviors?)

Acts 8:22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.(why would god say this in Rev if he was not commanding them to repent and stop being wicked? why didn't he say "hey it's your choice, probably for the same reason you don't watch a woman get beat up and tell the attacker "hey it's your choice")

Revelation 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.


If my daughter were being raped Im not sure I would want you around to help based on your reasoning, since you don't think you have the right to tell a non-Christian to be less wicked


I better stop here since I’m now in jeopardy of going off on a tangent.



Quote of the day;

NO WHERE in the word of God does it say that “Christians” should limit “non-Christians” in their ability to choose wicked behavior.

- Pedro P.

I challenge you to find the words Non-Christian in the bible.......


Joe