This was sent to me by my good friend and Pastor Dan, Incredible! What's incredible you say? That so many Christians are voting to place this man in office despite what he believes and dispite what he says he will do once he is there. Once again the term "Born again Christian" needs to be clearly defined when reading statistics. I have also placed a link to an article that was posted on another page which one of the associate Pastors of my church, New Covenant Community Church posted on his facebook page. Very interesting reading. As always all comments are welcomed.
Why 'born-again' Christians are backing Obama
12 comments:
Joe would have you believe that you should Vote for a man that will impose Christian morals on non-Christian through laws. For example, because we as Christians believe that acting on gay impulses is wrong ... Joe would have you believe that we should elect individuals that will enforce laws that prohibit it and discriminate against it. That my friends is completely and utterly unchristian and against the word of God. Read the bible for yourself and find the truth. Words of men are flawed. Only the word of God is the truth.
You will find that Jesus didn’t call us to force non-Christians to do anything. Jesus wants non-Christians to have the freedom of choice. The freedom to either follow him or not to. If you go into the voting booth to vote for a candidate based on whether they will enforce Christian morality through law, you are taking away non-Christians right to choose and you are disobeying God. I strongly advise you to read the Bible for yourself.
You will not find a single place in the bible that calls Christians to enforce Christian beliefs on non-Christians through law. ... I have challenged Joe to find me such a passage and he can’t either. Non-the-less, Joe will most certainly respond to this post with a whirl wind of biblical quotes just like he did last time I brought this issue up. Just keep in mind that just because someone can produce a bunch of biblical quotes does not mean they are right. It just means they are good at producing quotes. Anyone can produce quotes out of context to prove just about anything. Read the Word of God for yourself (particularly in the New Testament) and decide for yourself.
Joe, I love you man, but on this one you’re just plain wrong. You will have to forgive me but since we have been through this before, I will not likely respond to any comment you might post in response to my post here. ... that is unless you are actually able to find a DIRECT reference in the bible that states we should look to government to enforce Christian morality on non-Christians.
Pedro would have you believe, by placing words in my mouth once again, that I believe we should "force" "non-Christians" to "obey" or "impose" laws created/made/enforced by Christians. Pedro has professed to be a Believer but continues to come onto this blog and oppose every biblical principal layed out. I wonder if Pedro realizes that he does not disagree with me alone but with almost every major and recognized Christian organization out there. Most of my postings consist of several comments and opinions by me and then I incorporate an article from well known trusted Christian leaders and organizations available today. And Pedro, for every comment he has posted, has virtually disagreed to the uttermost with every single thing I have posted. I challenge anyone to find a single posting where we agree on anything (other than it taking about a year or so to convince you there was no real proof of macro evolution)? Romans teaches that there can be legitimate differences among Christians but this is beyond the boundaries here. How is it that two Christians who pray to the same God, read the same Holy Scriptures and supposedly follow the same biblical principles be in such direct contradiction and opposition? He doesn't disagree with me one bit, he disagrees with God despite his comments that "only the word of God is the truth" If anyone would read any of his views and comments in the past, one could easily argue that he is not reading the same bible that we are. Nor can he produce any evidence that I used any scripture out of context. I have presented them in a purely exegetical manner. I fully understand as a believer that we are responsible to "correctly handle the word of truth"(2 Tim 2:15) and that "All scripture is God breathed....therefore, it us able to be used for "teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness", which is what I use it for in our rebuttals.(emphasis mine) Does it make sense for a Christian to come onto another Christians blog and say such a thing like "all he will do is produce a bunch a quotes from the bible...."? Where did you think as a Christian that I would "not" produce quotes from scripture? The bible overwhelmingly states that it is the source (bread) of life for us and Jesus himself is the Word (John 1:1) So why would a Christian come onto another Christians website and condemn him for using the word of God which you claim is the very thing we should be following?
I do not see Pedro going onto Albert Mohler's website and disagreeing with his views. I do not see Pedro going onto AIG or CSE and disagreeing with the very same views that I hold here and they teach there regarding the election and how to vote. My views are the same as AIG, CSE, and Albert Mohler ministries etc because we all read the same bible, serve the same God and so exercise our rights, responsibility and obligations to vote responsibly as Christians. One could easily see the secular views in Pedro's comments when reading them. I would argue that the bible is not "authoritative" in his life nor does he attempt to be a "doer of the word, and not just a hearer" (James 1:22) which is what the bible calls us to do.
James 1:22 - "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says"
So why is it that Pedro is unable or unwilling to look at the political debate through a Christian perspective, which is how our founding fathers established this great nation?
Now Pedro who claims we must follow the word of God will tell you that I have just used that quote out of context and dismiss, ignore, and find no relevance for it in this conversation. Hmm... Very interesting.
And last but not least.
Pedro once again is accusing me and every other Christian who is voting against Obama of "Forcing men to obey Christian laws", where he gets this from I'm not entirely sure, because you will not find this in any of my postings. Let me make this crystal clear so that Pedro will stop using this in future post or at least until the election is over. We do not impose or force any laws on any man. Our example is one which comes from the Savior Jesus himself. We are doing what He did. Do you as a Christian condemn this? Do you disagree with every attempt on God the Father and Jesus's rebuke on wicked nations who practiced the very thing Obama is attempting to further legalize and normalize? (Homosexual behavior & Abortion) I can draw countless Scriptures (perfectly within context) of God calling wicked nations to turn from their sin and he would then heal their land and be blessed as a consequence of their obedience and faith. God the father himself said in Matt 17:5 "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" But Pedro's comments seem to contradict this. Why does the bible tell us to be "imitators of Christ" if we are not supposed to do the things Christ did and believe in the things Christ did?
I/we are doing the same thing Jesus and the law did - which was to point men to their sin so they would see the need for a Savior - this and this is the only reason why we point out homosexual behavior and abortion etc...
Maybe you should read the posting "Vote Your Faith" to see what happens when Godly men and woman vote and what happens when Godly men and woman do not vote.
http://jsirianni7.blogspot.com/2008/10/for-those-who-feel-that-our-and-by-our.html
And once again as Jesus stated to the Pharisee's when he was asked a question, he said "You are in error because you do not know the scriptures nor the power of God" Your straw man argument on producing a scripture that states somewhere in the bible God imposing Christian beliefs on non-Christians doesn't exist in word for word terms. And my challenge stands to you as well to find the words "non-Christians" in the bible. However, your request is ironic because it in fact is what the entire bible portrays Whenever God addresses anyone in scripture it is always addressed to "man" as in "man kind" (which are Christians and non-Christians, Believers and non-Believers etc) When he addresses the "nations" or Israel or whoever it is always to change from being a slave to sin and become a slave to righteousness - and you call this "imposing christian laws on non-Christians" You are in error! God calls all men to accept salvation and patiently waits for man to do so.
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"
Does this not cover "everyone" at the very least "non-Christians"? Your argument is seriously flawed and one that comes from lack of reading and an incorrect exegetical interpretation of scripture.
Why can't you realize that your vote will determine whether millions of more babies get aborted? And why can't you realize that your decision could aide in the re-defining of what marriage is? And since you claim that the bible is the word of God and that we should follow it, this means that God has already defined what marriage is, which is a union between a man and a woman. He defined it in Genesis at the beginning of creation. Do you agree? Or am I using this scripture out of context as well? This is by no means me "imposing" or "forcing" these beliefs on anyone. If I didn't know better it would seem as though you are fighting FOR abortion and homosexuality to persist in this nation. I am simply fighting to stop these things and so by voting against Obama we have an opportunity to stop abortion and being forced to recognized gay marriage. This is the difference! I could easily argue using your very logic and say that Obama is forcing his religion on us, could I not? Are not gay marriage and abortion his views? (He is arguably "radically" pro choice, more than any other senator or candidate nominee in the history of this nation) And so if elected, he will pass laws that I must follow now. If gay marriage is forced to be recognized by health care providers and churches etc... then you, me , and teachers in schools will not be allowed to teach your child that marriage is between a man and a woman even though you believe this and want your children to know it. It's not ok or enough to say "well, schools can teach my kids whatever they want and when they get home I'll re-teach them". As Christians you forget that this country was founded on Christian backbones. Men and woman who did not compromise the word of God. We have long since then stepped out of the will of God. I think your definition of a Christian is entirely different than mine. I would like to know, if you feel like responding, what you think a Christian is or what constitutes one to be a Christian? How does one have a relationship with God? How do you get to Heaven? How does someone know they are saved and a Christian anyway? I would like to hear your thoughts on these questions.
You said: "Pedro would have you believe, by placing words in my mouth once again, that I believe we should "force" "non-Christians" to "obey" or "impose" laws created/made/enforced by Christians."
>> Joe you have never made this statement directly... but it’s the natural conclusion to what you're feeding people. You don't have to say it for it to be implied. You keep saying that we should not vote for Obama because he will remove laws which discriminate against gays and prohibit abortion. So in other words, you feel it’s important that government officials enforce laws which uphold biblical principles and are votes government officials into place that will do that. It’s the same thing...
You said: "Pedro has professed to be a Believer but continues to come onto this blog and oppose every biblical principal layed out."
>> No, I don't oppose biblical principles. I opposed words of MEN who skew biblical principles. There is a difference... but you wouldn't understand that since you consider yourself to never be wrong on any biblical subject.
You said: "I wonder if Pedro realizes that he does not disagree with me alone but with almost every major and recognized Christian organization out there."
>> Wow, that is an insane overstatement. Have you really collected statistics among all the denominations to be able to make a statement like this... or are you just throwing out statistics off the cuff? Huh... I wonder.
You said: "Most of my postings consist of several comments and opinions by me and then I incorporate an article from well known trusted Christian leaders and organizations available today."
>> Sorry if I don't put my faith on the words of other Men.
You said: "And Pedro, for every comment he has posted, has virtually disagreed to the uttermost with every single thing I have posted. I challenge anyone to find a single posting where we agree on anything (other than it taking about a year or so to convince you there was no real proof of macro evolution)?"
>> Are you kidding me Joe. Now you are just outright lying. What are you up to here... I guess you're using the same tactics on me that your use on Obama.... making me out to be wrong by association instead of by fact. That is despicable. I have agreed with you whole heartedly on a number of things.... including (how soon we forget) your entire view on Abortion and Homosexual lifestyles as they pertain to what Christians should and shouldn't do. I only disagreed with you on a small fraction of the subject which is "what Christians role should be in government". … stepping outside of this immediate topic and looking back at many of the other topics, I have also agreed with you on many parts of other subjects as well. I typically only disagree with you on a fraction of the subject you discuss. I guess your just not seeing the forest through the trees. It doesn't surprise me considering how personal you’re taking this. Joe, you love to "rebuke" people, but you sure can’t take it when its dished in your direction. The second someone uses harsh words to rebuke you, you turn around and immediately smear their reputation in an attempt to discredit them.
>> And what is this comment about taking a year to convince me of no-proof for macro evolution. Why are you choosing to put me down over this. Boy, for being a Christian that tries to help others, you sure love to put other people down. That is a low blow.
You said: "How is it that two Christians who pray to the same God, read the same Holy Scriptures and supposedly follow the same biblical principles be in such direct contradiction and opposition? He doesn't disagree with me one bit, he disagrees with God despite his comments that "only the word of God is the truth" If anyone would read any of his views and comments in the past, one could easily argue that he is not reading the same bible that we are."
>> Yeah, because that is just so unusual isn’t it. Are you kidding me Joe? How many denominations of Christian churches are there in the world? ... and why are there so many Joe? They all pray to the same God don't they? I know you know better Joe... but yet you pull into question my devotion to God. Frankly, I resent that.
Hi Joe - That study bible that you bought me a few years ago is finally on its last legs. I literally used it to pieces. God bless you my friend. You are a good and faithful servant of our Lord Jesus Christ. - Chris <><
By the way, you should try blogger's new commenting format. It blows away the older format you're currently using. See ya! - Chris
Chris,
Send me the link brother, I would love to check it out.
Thanks
Joe
Hi Joe! Thanks for taking such a strong stand for Christ. It is truly needed in this day and age. We tried our best to encourage people not to vote for Obama, now all we can do is pray for our nation. It's a sad day for us, I know, but I find comfort in knowing that our Father will always be with us. Our country may have to reap what it has sewn for a while. I hope that many will learn to cling to Father through it all. May He bless you, my dear brother.
Ahhh Jess,
Always an encouragement. Thanks so much for your comment. In all of this I'm reminded of the words "His Sovereignty" This is the only thing that gives me hope. I hope all is well in China, and once again I truly envy you and Adam with a Godly jealousy for the work your doing over there. Your faithfulness truly does encourage me. It brings a little "Faith" to my "Focus" if you know what I mean. Hahahah I do miss those days and being a part of that ministry. Have a wonderful day Jess. And thanks again for your comments and encouragement.
Joe
hi joe...... I have been wanting to write you to say thank you and tell you I really appreciated your blogs on Christianity/Obama/voting....... It's amazing to me the comprimise in stance Christians take when trying to make a choice or decision...... how a Christian can say I'm Democrat but I dont support abortion or homo-sexual marriage is a big contradiction. A vote to the party supports the topic. Its very confusing to me, but it was nice to read your blog, its a tough stance to make and I admire your courage and values! Hope all is well with the family Joe......
your brother in Christ
KEITH
hi joe...... I have been wanting to write you to say thank you and tell you I really appreciated your blogs on Christianity/Obama/voting....... Its amazing to me the comprimise in stance Christians take when trying to make a choice or decision...... how a Christian can say I'm Democrat, but I dont support abortion or homo-sexual marriage is a big contradiction. A vote to the party supports the topic clearly. We should not force things.... no, but we have a responsibility to shed and share light, not conform to the wordly views.... if we would not shed light then where is the line drawn in seperation from sin? I'm not sure, but my Bible says that man will hate me because they hated HIM first. We are instructed to be different, set apart, only to be judged! God told us he formed us perfect in our mothers womb! It's life, plan and simple. Its very confusing with some stances or avoidance or comprimise on issues, but it was nice to read your blog, its a tough stance to make and I appreciate your courage and values! Hope all is well with the family Joe......
your brother in Christ
KEITH
Keith,
Thank you so much for the encouragement brother, I really appreciate it.
Joe
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