Pedro's original post:
Pedro said...
Joe, I disagree with many of your arguments whole heartily. I honestly don’t want to get into it any deeper because I feel that it wouldn’t be a productive conversation. Nonetheless, I want to respond to a select few things you said. Joe Said: "Again, this contradicts God's word and who He is. You’re saying that he didn't do it the way He says he did."No, I am not disagreeing with what God said. God never told anyone in Genesis what His processes were... he just said "Let there be..." There are certainly a lot of processes that could have taken place after those words were said. The actual processes of His creation were not disclosed in Genesis. Science has discovered some very interesting things that shed some light on this subject. I can hear your arguments already... No, I don't put my faith in science, but I know that God allows mankind to discover many things through science that up until recently only God had knowledge of.Joe Said "They also believe that God still controls these processes and that evolution is still proceeding. These teachings are contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture that God has completed His creation (Genesis 2:1-2)." ... "Are you saying that God did a poor job the first time? hmm...."I don’t disagree with God’s word. God’s creation was life itself and the evolutionary functionality encoded into its design. He did complete it in instituting this design and it is a very impressive design indeed... one that evolves.Joe Said "You want to argue evolution and it's process but you don't want to argue how the first organism got there to evolve in the first place?"There is no argument there either... God created the first organism... he created all living things through his processes. God has his methods and we humans will never fully understand them all, but God does allow us to understand some of them.Joe Said "Simply stated, as people of God, to say that God used both creation and then evolution to bring about his work, is to say God lied when he stated in Genesis "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." He made it very clear from the very first sentence that He did it all.” What is the big deal about evolution? Geez, you act like it a mortal sin. It does not make God any less powerful if he chose to do it that way. Could God have created a creation that evolves? Sure, God could have done it any way he wanted too. What is clear to me is that the story of creation did not define every fine detail about His actual processes. This leaves much open to discovery.Joe Said "2 Peter 3:8 The context of this passage concerns the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ"Even though this verse was talking about the 2nd Coming of Jesus, its concept of God’s time is the Truth... or are you saying it is a lie? (I would not normally put it this way, but I wanted to illustrate how your extreme methods of reasoning feel when it’s directed towards you. Just as you probably find it a bit offense that I would suggest this about you, I find it rather offensive when you suggest that I would intentionally make God out to be a liar. I know your intentions were not to suggest that God lies and I would appreciate it if you would give me that common courtesy as well. There is no need to be so extreme in one’s arguments.)Joe Said "Be careful Pedro, when you believe in something that you cannot see..."I believe in many things I don’t see. So do you. Do you believe in electrons? Do you believe in gravity? Much of this modern world is based on things you can’t see and things you don’t fully understand. Does it make them any less real?Joe Said "Creation and evolution is not a battle between religion and science, it is a battle of "our" religion against "their" religion. A battle of two world views."Some people use science to say there is no god. Some people interpret the Bible to say there is no truth in science. Some people see God’s hand in Science and see it harmony with His Word. From the stand point of Creation, I am pretty clear where you stand on this subject now and I am sure its pretty clear where I stand. There is not much of a point in us arguing about it anymore. When it’s all said and done, what you believe about creation and what I believe are not going to define our salvation nor block us from it. We can just leave it at that and be happy to have understood two view points on this subject. Thanks again for sharing your views through this blog Joe.
Joe's Reply:
It would seem by certain parts of your email that I have offended you by what I said. It sort of reminds me when Paul was preaching to the Galatians in chapter 4 and said "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?" Not implying at all that we have become enemies obviously, but by the fact that he somehow offended them. I would ask, have I offended you for telling you the truth? Pedro you have terribly compromised God's word to better fit your "theory" of evolution. You have believed your biology and astronomy teachers rather than believe God himself.
You argue that God never explained the processes that he used to bring about his creation, you say he says "Let there be.........". Yes you are right, but allow me to finish those lines you quote that God spoke long ago. "Let there be......... and then there was" and "let there be.........and it was so..." and in conclusion with what he created for that "day" he says And there was evening, and there was morning—the ____ day. Did it say those days are a thousand years? You didn't post my entire quote when you quoted me on that. Again, that scriptures shows you that God is outside of time! Could you please show me from scripture where it implies, or where god said he used evolution and millions and millions of years? If you are correct, you should be able to tell me where God says or implies this. My bible says God is not a god of confusion but a God of clarity (1st Cor 14:33 NASB). He has made his creation very clear in his historical account in scripture because he didn't want you to make the mistake that he made it all, and without millions of years or evolution.
The bible says: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." God is referring to the trinity when he says "us". We are created in Gods "image" not through evolution and from a monkey. You side with evolution which says that man evolved as a result of those fish. Which one is it? if you side with evolution, then yes YOU ARE CALLING GOD A LIAR because he says he did it one way, and you are telling God he's wrong and the he used evolution to do it. I always think it's funny when people try to tell God how he created something when he told us how he created it already. One of you is wrong Pedro and my money is on you if I had to choose between you and God. Again he says "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. How plain does it have to be? Where does it say he used evolution and millions of years? Please show me so that I can understand where your coming from. God told man this: "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Evolution says you came from primordial soup then evolved over millions of years and then eventually became a monkey and then a highly sophisticated piece of human machinery. But God said man and animals were made on day six and then gave man dominion to rule over all the animals that evolution says we came from. Who is right? Why does it upset you when I tell the evolutionary thinker he is calling God a liar?
Pedro, please take this section of scripture I'm going to paste below and make it clear to me so that "I may have understanding" of how God used evolution and millions of years to bring about his creation. Please show me where my interpretation of God's already interpreted word is wrong:
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [b] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (Emphasis mine)
Please tell me, especially in that last sentence, where you get the interpretation that God used millions of years and evolution to bring forth Adam and Eve? The truth is that Evolution is the exact opposite of creation, they cannot exist together. Evolution says Dinosaurs turned into birds the bible says God made the birds on day five and he made the reptiles on day six evolution says reptiles came first and then the birds. I don't understand??? Everything about evolution is backwards when compared to the bible!!! Who should we listen to? God or your evolutionists? I'm with Peter in Acts when he said "We must obey God rather than men!"
And then you say you can hear my arguments........"I don't put my faith in Science" Your right I don't put my faith in science. I have nothing against science at all. I love science. What I'm telling you is real science confirms god's word. They do not contradict each other as most people believe. Evolution is not real science. Molecules to man theory is a fantasy, pure speculation for the evolutionist who doesn't want to be held accountable to God.
Pedro said: "I don’t disagree with God’s word. God’s creation was life itself and the evolutionary functionality encoded into its design. He did complete it in instituting this design and it is a very impressive design indeed... one that evolves."
I don't understand why you keep saying that your not disagreeing with God's word. Yes you are. He did not say he did it this way. Please tell me again where in scripture it says or implies that he used the evolutionary hypothesis to "make" or "create"?
You say God created the first organism. God says he created Adam a full grown, walking and talking man. Who is right? You or God? Since you agree with his word, you would have to say God, right? Then why do you keep saying he used evolution when God did not say he used it but told us he created Adam and Eve?
Pedro said: What is the big deal about evolution? Geez, you act like it's a mortal sin. It does not make God any less powerful if he chose to do it that way. Could God have created a creation that evolves? Sure, God could have done it any way he wanted too. What is clear to me is that the story of creation did not define every fine detail about His actual processes. This leaves much open to discovery.
What is the big deal about evolution? The big deal is that it's a lie and God never used it, never said he used it, told us plainly how he created (when he said Has not my hand made all these things?). It was created by his hand and power not evolution. God hates the lie therefore, he hates evolution. God said he hates "a lying tongue" and "a false witness who pours out lies" (Proverbs 6:17 & 19) And as far as discovery goes, we are still waiting to "discover" the missing link, the transitional fossil that shows any ounce of credible, indisputable evidence of one species transforming into a completely different species. It doesn't exist!!!
As for the paragraph you wrote to me asking "are you calling God a liar". You say there is no need to be extreme in my arguments. On the contrary, because of the evil of evolution and the potential danger in it, it is my obligation to correct you. Please, I urge you when you get the chance to watch the video "The Dangers of Evolution" If you really want to see the effects of it and how it has caused world wars and school shootings etc.... I strongly urge you to watch the video when you can, I guarantee you won't ever ask "what's the big deal with evolution?" again. What if one day a cop came to your door and told you that kids at school shot your daughter because she believed in God? How would you feel to learn that the one boy who after shooting everyone and turned the gun on himself, was wearing a t-shirt that said "Natural Selection" on it? And lets say they found a video of the boys before they plotted this whole school shooting and the video talked about various things like black people - and one of the boys said (referring to a black athlete in his school that he planned on shooting, and later did) "that boy doesn't deserve the jaw evolution gave him" This was the case in the Columbine shooting. Watch the video. http://www.creationscienceevangelism.com/downloads.php
Pedro said: "There is not much of a point in us arguing about it anymore. When it’s all said and done, what you believe about creation and what I believe are not going to define our salvation nor block us from it. We can just leave it at that and be happy to have understood two view points on this subject. "
I hear you man, but what I believe is what God said, what you believe is not from God's word, it is your interpretation and speculation and that which your teachers taught you most likely. God didn't say it, that's why I can't understand and have a hard time believing why you would take these views, especially as a Christian. However I may disagree, it is respectively and I thank you also for allowing these postings so that other's can see these views. I would like to point you to some great resources however before your mind is made up on these matters. Do with them what you would like.
This article is really exactly on this subject (read it when you get the chance) I could of honestly just pasted it for you and it would address the theistic evolutionary viewpoint but I wanted to reply personally. ( I will be posting this article in a future blog shortly)
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v27/i1/creation.asp
Videos: you can download these to your pda if you want and pop some headphones in and listen while your doing dishes or something.
http://www.creationscienceevangelism.com/downloads.php
also check out the links posted on the right on my main blog page.
And when you get a chance maybe you can see this written debate against Dr. Kent Hovind and
Hugh Ross - Hugh Ross believes what you believe only more in depth. Check out the arguments between the two and see what they say on the subject.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/news/Ross_Hovind_Analysis.asp
Thanks Pedro,
your brother,
Joe
7 comments:
Joe Said: You argue that God never explained the processes that he used to bring about his creation, you say he says "Let there be.........". Yes you are right, but allow me to finish those lines you quote that God spoke long ago. "Let there be......... and then there was" and "let there be.........and it was so..."
Ok, so you are trying to say that the wording "Let there be......... and then there was" is some kind of clear proof of instantaneous creation. I see no absolute proof here at all. There is no mention here of the actual processes that took place between the command and the confirmation. Yes, it could have been instantaneous, but yes, it could have been an evolutionary process. It was God’s choice and it was not explicitly revealed in this scripture. Since it was not explicitly revealed, there is much room for discovery.
Joe Said: Again, that scripture shows you that God is outside of time! Could you please show me from scripture where it implies, or where god said he used evolution and millions and millions of years?
I already did. God’s time is not the same as man’s time.
Joe Said: How plain does it have to be? Where does it say he used evolution and millions of years?
Sometimes it is not what it says, but what is not say. Let me ask the same questions from a different point of view. Where does it say that God’s time is the same as man’s time? I don’t see anywhere in the Bible that says that they are equal. Where does it explicitly say that creation was an instantaneous and spontaneous thing? You may think it is absolutely clear in Genesis, but I don’t see it. There are never any words that say it was instantaneous and done out of thin air. NONE! To the contrary, it says "Let there be......... and then there was". What exactly happened between the command and the confirmation that it was done. You cannot prove it was spontaneous and done in an instant because it was not written explicitly. I also cannot prove via the Bible that it was an evolutionary process because it was also not written explicitly. My point is that since it was not written explicitly, there is much room for discovery... and that is what science provides us.
Joe Quoted: Genesis 1:4 as "...the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."
Your right, God does provide more detail about his process in creating Man then he does with the rest of his creation. He said He "..formed the man from the dust of the ground...” This certainly does provide a little more insight into the process from which man was created... it would be interesting to know what process cased man to form or evolve from the ground. Unfortunately, again the Bible does not state whether this was spontaneous or some other process.
You tried to present this passage as some kind of proof for your claims, but I don’t see it. If anything I see the possibility of evolution even stronger here. I assume your claim is that he breathed into his nostrils only at the end of that creation process so therefore anything that came before it couldn’t have been living. What I see here is that the whole sentence is illustrative of God’s process. God fully intended to create man from the beginning. As such, he did not consider man to be alive until the final evolutionary step when that fully evolved man was born. Just as a child has to receive its first breath when it is born, so did man.
Now, with that said, this is just one possible interpretation and I fully admit it is pure speculation. Nonetheless, I believe that any claim that this process was instantaneous is also pure speculation. Since God did not outline the processes in detail, but just gave us a mile-high overview, the actual processes will never be absolutely known. There is much room for discovery.
Joe Said: Evolution says you came from primordial soup then evolved over millions of years and then eventually became a monkey and then a highly sophisticated piece of human machinery.
Yes. Could God have used this method? Sure. Could God have used a combination of some evolution and some spontaneous creation? Yes, he could have. Could God have used purely spontaneous creation? Yes, absolutely. There is no were in the Bible that clearly talks about these processes in detail. There is much room for discovery and interpretation of discovery. Do I truly believe that all things evolved from a single cell? That is just one interoperation of the scientific discovery, but I don’t think it can only be interoperated that way. God could have used a mix of spontaneous creation and evolution at various levels and over various time frames. Man does not have it all figured out and probably never will.
Fact is even the creationists believe in evolution. I am sure you’re well aware of the creationist’s theory of "Super Evolution" that supposedly took place after the Great Flood (the story of Noah’s Ark). Here is a video on YouTube that discusses the subject and its use in the Creationists Museum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mPPnN1c0jk
Joe Said: Why does it upset you when I tell the evolutionary thinker he is calling God a liar?
Only God has the right to judge. You should not pass judgment on your fellow human beings. If I am a liar, let God speak to me though his Word. There is no need for name calling. In response to your quote from Galatians, Yes, Paul said many things in his letters to the various Church’s, but let’s not forget that Paul was human and not God. As such, Paul was not perfect. Paul was a faithful servant of God with human faults just like the rest of us.
You do not offend me by presenting your views. The Truth also will not offend me. I am offended by name calling under the pretenses of a superior error-free presentation of the Truth. That is quite presumptuous considering your human.
I am human with my own faults. Can I make errors in my interpretations of the Bible?... Yes, I can and I probably do. Do I do them intentionally to make God out to be a liar... absolutely not! Can you make errors in your interpretations of the Bible?... likewise, Yes you can and you probably do. Do you do it intentionally to make God out to be a liar... absolutely not! Please don’t pass judgment on me. If there is judgment to be passed, let the Word of God speak for itself.
You’re my friend. We both want the same things... the Truth. We should not have to resort to name calling to get our points across.
False Statements About Genesis
No one else, presently walking on this Earth, is an expert on Genesis. There is no "close second". Do not even listen to anyone else trying to expound what Genesis is saying, or what "creationism" is, for they do not understand the text, and are speaking from ignorance. Anyone else speaking about "what Genesis says", or comparing it to evolution should be considered unqualified to speak on the subject, no matter how many credentials it seems they have. There is no "creation account" in Genesis. There is no such thing as a "creation/evolution" contest. It is "evolution" verses the "Observations of Moses", shown to him by God in 1598 BC, in biblical order, as revealed by the Living Word in the Gospels.
The world of theology (and creationism) has never understood Genesis, so of course they would not have told us the truth, since they never did their "homework". Each day in Genesis, from Gen. 1:2 thru 2:3 was a 24-hr day , shown to Moses, taken from seven different weeks (1 day from Creation Week, 6 days from 6 restoration weeks), and each (first) week was from a different geologic age. The seven days conveyed to Moses were not linear.
Genesis chapter two covers about a 200 yr period, starting in about 7200 BC, and has nothing to do with chapter one. There was no "evolution". The 600+ million year fossil record shows that there was Creation, followed by escalating extinction, then six periods of restorations, with five more extinction events in between, ending each era of life. With the third era of mankind (the second restoration), God "redesigned" mankind to be in His image, after His likeness, in about 64 Million BC.
If you have comments, issues, or questions, direct them to me (ephraim7@aol.com), or read the book "Moses Didn't Write About Creation!", now in print. Have I made myself clear?
Herman Cummings
PO Box 1745
Fortson GA, 31808
Ephraim7@aol.com
For lack of better word..........
Wow! I have never seen such a great distortion of truth and this ingnoring of Gods scripture which he made very plain to us.
Pedro I would suggest if you could watch even just one video from the links I gave you and at least one or two of those short articles form the link in the posting "Did God use Evolution" Remember that circle I was talking about? I think we hit it. Gods word is clear and you are clearly distorting it. It's as one of speakers in the article says, "it's not what God could of done, it's what God said he did" I will pray that God opens your eyes to see his plain truth. It's like trying to argue over "Man shall not lie with man, for this is detestable unto the Lord" And for someone to try to go in there and really figure out what that means, or try to really figure out what God was saying. It's plain reading, no interpretation needed. Same goes for the creation account. Feel free to read the text in it's original language, that might shed great light onto what God really meant. And for the record, I wasn't name calling, I didn't call you a liar, God did.
To our new friend Hermon, welcome. I thank you for joining the post. You are sadly mistaken however about the creation account. I would ask you to read one or two of the articles as well (they are very short) You are also using inaccurate dating methods from evolutionists when you refer to your millions of years as well. All that you typed is pure speculation as well. The bible is not just a collection of stories, it is "literal" history. However, due to lack of time I cannot give an adequate reply or comment as I would like to your post. So I will attempt to address some of the things you mentioned soon Hermon. Thanks a lot.
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe
I have tried to reason with you from the scriptures where this is the only place the truth can come about (scriptures ie. God's word) But you ignore it's plain teaching. I find it rather fascinating that you would believe god would and could use Super Evolution when he has not told us in his word that that's how he did it, but you can't believe that he instantaneously created which is the way he did say he did it.
One of you is wrong? why are you trying so hard to fit evolution into the creation account? Again you believe that he can use this "super evolution" which he did not say he used but you can't believe he used instantaneous creation which is what he said he did!!! You said you believe the word of God, then believe it when he said he used six literal 24 hr days to bring about his creation. (See article where it discusses God used the word "yom" which meant day in it's proper context)
Where does it go from here? I supposed next one will argue that God didn't really part the Red Sea in scripture the way he said he did?
I really think that you are trying so hard to incorporate evolution into the creation account because you can't really believe that God would do it the way he said it did, that it's not "believable" for you and gradual evolution makes more sense to you so you will use that instead.
Furthermore, in regards to your Super evolution. These are people who are compromising the word of god the way that you are, they believe what you believe regarding the creation account. They do not speak for all "creationist" Many true creationist (one's who believe God's word says plainly how he created the universe and world) go out of there way to debate these people because they are doing great damage to Christianity in the name evolution. Notice your video amongst many other articles on this disproven topic say things like "Biology research suggest..." and "that the pair of Rhinoceroses on the ark diversified into perhaps..." It's funny how evolutionists always use these terms "perhaps" "probably" "suggest" "we think" and "it most likely" etc.... these terms are ok to use, but then don't say these things are fact and use my tax dollars to feed these lies to my kids, acknowledge them as hypothesis or theories. This is what is being taught in text books all over the world.
It's this simple. You cannot prove by God's word that he used evolution to bring about his creation (Pedro I know you acknowledged this already and you said it went both ways) but I want to show you that it can be proven that he "didn't" use evolution by the scriptures. Any other argument outside this is not argued using the scriptures, it's by human reasoning only. here goes:
Please read this very carefully:
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
Rom 5:12 -
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
Ok now you say you believe in all scripture right? So here is what the scripture is saying plainly, anyone one can see this (even a 7th grader, this is the NIV which is a 7th grade reading level) The bible is saying here in this passage that "therefore just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam) and so "death" through sin..." so we see that there was no sin in the world before Adam and Eve ate the fruit right? Then it says because of that sin "death" entered the world as well. (and this is physical as well as spiritual death) So there was no death before Adam according to the scriptures right? And then to back it up even more it says that "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses" (v14) So we agree now that the teaching is plain and not difficult to understand when it says that death was around after Adam sinned and from the time of Adam to Moses right? So then before Adam, we again go to the scriptures, when God created he said that it was "very good" meaning there was no sin (because that's not "very good" is it, there was no death or disease because that wouldn't be "very good" either, agreed?) So now evolution comes along and says that God used Death to bring about the creation, does this make sense? Who is wrong here? God says death wasn't even around before Adam and his sin, but evolution says we need death and mutation to bring more/different species. This sums it up well...
"Evolution is a cruel process of death built upon death, suffering upon suffering. Yet the Bible says that God made the world a perfect place--with beauty, harmony, life, unity, and peace."
"3) God is love. A loving God would certainly not use such a process of struggle and death for millions of years and then proclaim it "very good!" (See Genesis 2)
4) There is no scientific evidence for evolution. Why try to change the Bible to fit in a theory that can't even be proven?"
More excerpts from articles of this exact argument: I don't mean to pass the buck, but this is like reinventing the wheel so I will enclose these excerpts which are the same views from scripture as to where I also stand. And it would save me a little time as well.
Which came first, sin or death? According to evolution, death has always been around, but the Bible says that death came into the world because Adam and Eve sinned. Our sin is what ruined God's perfect world and brought about the curse of death. Really, the whole Gospel of Jesus is built upon this principle. (Romans 5:12, 8:20-21)
"Theistic evolution has enormous appeal. It seems to offer the best of both worlds. It offers the comfort and fulfilment of believing in God, and at the same time the security of fitting in with the major scientific consensus."
"They could be anything. There is no reason why God would not do it this way. It makes absolute sense." (referring to using evo. to create)
Garit (evolutionist)
USA
"So you do agree that they could be six normal days? See, the problem isn’t what God could have done, it is an issue of what God said He did. Either you trust God when He speaks or you trust men when they say God is wrong." (creationist)
"If there was no Fall, why do we need redemption? If the problem is not our sin but our animal nature, then we only need to wait for evolution to raise us to the next stage." (what would you be following Jesus for then?)
"I was talking to a young woman recently who summed it up well. The answer is so simple, she said, that we often overlook it. Jesus treated Genesis as though it actually happened, so that settles it. We may not be able to master a lot of complex arguments against theistic evolution, but even a child can grasp this one. Among those who claim to be Christians, Jesus' own treatment of Genesis closes the question."
"Then, do you think Jesus was being deceptive with His comments that are recorded in Mark 10:6? Jesus Christ, who is God (John 1, Colossians 1, Hebrews 1) makes it clear there were no long ages. When He was asked about marriage and divorce, He said:
But at the beginning of creation God “made them male and female” (Mark 10:6)"
"The reason we know that God didn’t use evolution is because He told us what He did. God is perfect and cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18) and His Word is flawless (Proverbs 30:5–6). It would be illogical to think that a perfect God, who eyewitnessed His creation, would be wrong when He speaks on it and that imperfect, fallible human beings would be right when they speculate about the past, especially when they didn’t eyewitness it."
"We were warned about such thinking by Paul:
See to it that no-one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. (Colossians 2:8)"
"God will never be wrong but mankind is all the time. If you are wondering about what science truly says on this issue, then recall that most fields of science were developed by Bible-believing Christians. Real, observable science confirms God’s Word."
"In Scripture we read ‘for since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead, for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive’ (1 Corinthians 15:22, 23). If Adam was the end of the evolutionary line, then thousands of evolving men had already died, and death did not come by Adam. Chapter 15 also tells of the second Adam, who was Christ. If the first Adam ‘ex–apeman’ was as real a person as the second Adam, then there came a day when God must have said: ‘You are of this moment man, Adam!"
Thanks for your comments/posts
regards,
Joe
Pedro, these links are for you:
Creation compromises:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/compromise.asp
10 dangers of theistic evolution:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i4/theistic_evolution.asp
And for that you tube video to be sent to me is pointless, because it is an argument from a theistic evolutionist to a super evolutionist. Both are wrong and God spoke about them in scripture when he said
""Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?" - Jesus
Joe
Joe, I just want to clear one thing up, I don’t believe in the "Super Evolution" theory I referenced. I was just posting it to show that even in a place dedicated to Creationist thinking, they use evolution to explain holes in their theories. When you responded to my comments, it seems as you thought I was supporting that theory.
I think "Super Evolution" is a complete fabrication. The Bible does not mention it, but since it does not deny it either, one would think that it could be a possibility. Unfortunately, there is no scientific proof of it either, so "Super Evolution" has absolutely no basis anywhere.
Joe, I think we said all that can be said for now. I can’t say that I am convinced of your interpretation of the Bible. I see all kinds of holes in everything you presented. Unfortunately we would have to write an entire book to really debate this effectively and so, I am going to cut out on this debate at this point. I will however be reading many of the references you posted to continue to learn about the Creationist view.
Before I leave this debate, I want to leave some final statement that sum up my view. My views are as follows: Nowhere in the Bible does it actually state the specific details about the processes of creation. God says "Let there be... and then there was". The processes between that command and that confirmation where not reveal to man through the Bible. As a result, there is much room left open for discovery. Science has provided some glimpses into Gods creation, but science does not have all the answers either. Science does prove some basic facts that I believe were somehow part of the processes of creation. The first of which is that there were living creatures on this earth for millions of years. At the end of the day though, anyone who says it was 100% evolution is merely speculating. Anyone that says it was a spontaneous creation is also merely speculating. The fact is that no one knows except for God himself.
Joe, I thank God for you and for your involvement with this Blog. I have enjoyed this debate and have learned some new things from it. The bottom line is that I like to be challenged and you certainly have done that here. Thanks man.
Post a Comment